Episode 45: Taking a Leap of Faith into Freelancing While Supporting a Family with Jason Doggett
I'm really excited about today's conversation because I get to speak to Jason Doggett, who is a homeschooling, freelancing dad just like me. We're going to talk all about how to make that transition into freelancing.
When you transition into freelancing and you're a parent with your kids doing school at home, how do you manage those two lives in one space? He used to. He started a freelance business, but then he left that to go back to a full-time employee job. Then he decided to quit and go back to freelancing, just like I did. He's going to discuss why he did that and how he did that.
If you're also a dad, like we are, we hope to share what it really takes and give you some hope that this is a very viable career path for you. We want to let you know that it is worth it for you, and it is worth it for your family to take this leap and freelance at home in your own business.
We're going to discuss some of the challenges that come with that, as well as the rewards. Jason's also going to share where he has found his first few clients over the last six months that he's been freelancing full time.
Because he's newer to this, he’s going to share what he does and how he finds his clients. He's only six months into this second round of freelancing, but he's already starting to get some traction.
Chad:
Welcome, Jason.
Jason:
Hi, Chad. Thanks.
Chad:
Jason, you’re very similar to me in that we’re both freelancing at home. You’re a dad of three and your family is also homeschooling. That combination is something that is starting to become more popular but is still unusual.
So first, I'd love to hear a little bit about your freelancing story. When did you start freelancing? Did you already have kids at that point? Did you go back and forth? Give us a little bit of a rundown of what brought you to where you are now and where you are in your freelancing journey.
Jason:
Well, it's slightly convoluted. Several years ago, just before my wife and I had our first child, we were working together with our own small business.
We were working from home and had a very similar feeling to freelancing because we didn’t have a huge number of clients, but we thought it was fairly successful.
So we already had that lifestyle dialed into our family life before we were a family. Then we had our first child about 10 years ago, and we decided that perhaps we needed a bit more stability. So I moved back into full-time employment for the last five years. My current freelancing career really started at the beginning of this year, around March of 2022.
So while being a freelance marketer is new to me, being a marketer is not, and working for myself from home is not. It's not quite the culture shock that perhaps somebody who's worked 20 years in an office or as an employee might feel.
Chad:
What made you decide to go back? You had it going, and then you went to full-time employment for some stability. That's exactly the same thing I did. So what made you decide to go back?
Jason:
When I started back on my five-year employee journey, the first two years were in an office fairly nearby. But in the third year, my company switched it up and I had to start to commute. That was okay, I guess.
Then Covid came along, and I was working from home and I was doing well. Recently, I was asked to come back to the office and I had to make a decision. So I had to sit down with my wife and decide what we were going to do. At this stage, we'd been homeschooling our two eldest children for four years at least for the eldest. So my presence in the home, whether I was working or not, was a big thing. And also the fact that the commute time was zero minutes to the office meant that that was a significant part of the contribution and part of the initiative.
If I were to go back to the office, it would mean I was commuting for about two hours a day. This was, by the way, a relocation to a new office. So it was a really big deal. And so we decided that now was the time to get myself in gear and give it a go and try this freelancing thing out that I’d been talking about.
At the time I'd done a little bit of studying about what it requires to be a freelancer. I'd come onto YouTube and I'd found your channel chat and a few others, but also some bloggers as well. And those using some of the freelance channels like Upwork, I'd been reading their advice.
Last year I did some side hustle freelancing just to try it out. Very small amounts with one platform. But I thought now was the time, so we decided to bite the bullet, and I quit.
Chad:
That's great. Like how you said, we also got used to my presence in the home and it's one of those things, once you're doing it for a while, it's almost impossible to go back. It's the dynamic within our home.
With me being here and me being more involved in my kids' lives and their home life on a daily basis, it would be extremely difficult for me to go back to a normal nine-to-five office job, with commuting and being gone all day. It's not worth it for me, even if I have some rougher financial times.
When I did have rougher financial times in the past, I quit freelancing for about a year because I wasn't making enough money. And then I went back to it because I knew I had to do it and I had to make it work for myself. Because I want to be here for my kids' lives.
When I started freelancing, they were still young and not quite ready for school. But we knew that we wanted to homeschool them, and we were preparing ourselves to be able to commit to that. So I really appreciate what you've been able to do in making that leap.
How did you plan that out? Was there some kind of financial plan when you knew you were going to quit your job? Something like having goals around how much you had in savings, or that you had to earn this much by this point? How did you plan out what that transition would look like?
Jason:
We didn't, I'm afraid. I think we're an example perhaps of the “slightly pushed” rather than “jumped.” I would say that the experience of this year has been rewarding. We'll talk about success and clients at some point, but it's rough. It's not easy. Clients are hard to come by and you have to fight hard for them. So that's what I'm doing, but that's an acceptable part of the experience.
You're always working 10 times more than an employee. I knew this when I was running my own small company. You're always thinking about work. So it's just one of those things, but the long game is to build up a more stable income than you abandon from your employee job.
So I'm hopeful for that, and I think that'll happen. In terms of planning, we had to just sit down and say, “Well, can I hit the ground running?” And as I said a bit earlier on, I had been doing my research. I had been looking at where clients were going to come from. And I'd said a while back to my wife, I said, “If I was working freelancing full time, then I think that the platforms that are out there now can sustain us.”
So that would obviously be Upwork and Fiverr and other channels like that. And I said, “I think there's good work out there, really good work. But I think you have to really focus on it.”
When you’re working full time it's hard to be competitive on those platforms and to respond quickly to jobs and things like that. So, to come back to your original question, I would say that we weren't as prepared as we could be, but sometimes you do need a leap of faith and I think that's what I’m going to sum it up as.
Chad:
Yeah, that's great. You knew that it was time and you followed that. Ultimately it's knowing what's most important in your life that really drives you to know you’re going to be okay. A lot of parents, especially those who are freelancing as their only source of income, are looking for that long-term stability.
It absolutely is possible, and it does come, but it is hard at first when you are up against more competition and you have less of a portfolio. The sales process is a little longer, and a little more difficult, but it does add up.
The biggest struggle that a lot of freelancers have is wrapping their heads around the fact that they have to keep selling every week.
They have to keep trying to find new clients. Eventually, it starts to become a system where it's not as difficult and time-consuming to find new clients. Then you have clients coming to you, but you're still selling every week. I'm still getting on calls with potential clients every week. That's something I want to hire out at some point as I grow my business. I’d like to have it where I'm not the only one doing the sales. But for a while, you have to be okay with that.
Whereas when you show up to your normal employee job, you have a company doing the sales for you, and you just show up and do the job that you're assigned to do, and it's a totally different thing.
How have you gone about finding your first few clients, now that you've gone back to freelancing? What platforms have you used? What are some tips that you've learned so far for that person who is a parent who is trying to support their family on one income? What's going to be the best place to start when it comes to making that transition?
Jason:
Firstly, channels and platforms. I'm in a sort of lucky position of working in marketing and sales. So to some extent, this is a sweet spot subject matter for freelancing and freelancing online. I certainly don't underestimate how difficult it might be for people in other sectors, but I'm only able to talk from my point of view.
What I did was, I went to look at the online channels. When you start thinking about running a marketing business, the advice tends to be to look within your local neighborhood.
But we live in quite a small town. Everybody knows everybody else. I'm an outsider, as I moved here five years ago. I'm not saying that they're unfriendly, because they're absolutely not. But it's difficult sometimes just to know people. And so I felt that online was where I would find clients because I felt it was a worldwide market for what I was selling.
Luckily, marketing crosses borders, and I had a wider number of people to sell to. So I registered with Upwork and Fiverr, both of which I hadn't really known that well.
I mentioned that I had done some side hustle freelancing, but that was with People Per Hour, which I think is a smaller, much smaller.
There's a different kind of feeling amongst the clients and the freelancers on each platform. You have to join and read some of the proposals and work offers to sort of get a feel for what they represent. People Per Hour is much more local. I see a lot more UK jobs there, but slightly higher value. Fiverr is interesting because you are really putting out your gigs on a sort of tabletop, and allowing people to walk by. That's a different kind of a feel.
But I've gotten regular work from Fiverr. People Per Hour has not been regular. And then there's Upwork, and I find that Upwork is much more, almost the proto jobs. It seems like people are going to hire you for quite a long time. There are a lot of U.S. firms as well, which again, has its own sort of feel. There are other channels like Toptal, but I couldn't get on with Toptal. They wouldn't really answer my emails very well, so I couldn't register with them. It was a bit difficult. And there are others like bark.com, you may know them. But I haven't really investigated them. So I've had gigs on all three channels.
I've had gigs on Upwork, Fiverr, and People Per Hour. My advice is, that's too many channels. Perhaps you might wanna focus on maybe one or two because it's hard. As I said, each one has a different flavor to it. You have to keep checking the platforms in different ways. But I'm on them. My profile reads pretty well. It needs to be more consistent across the platforms at the moment.
I think that consistency would work because then you could, with a level playing field, you can see what's working and what's not. My advice would be to really get to know the platform that you choose. Take your ego out of the equation when it comes to pricing. You've just got to adjust your pricing accordingly. Make the best of your portfolio and your profile.
Put as much content into your profile as you've got and keep adding to it as well. If you do a small job for someone, pick it up and put it on as a portfolio item. Because I find that a lot of people who do really great work undermine themselves by saying, “Well, I only did it once,” or, “Well, I only did a small amount,” or “I didn't get paid much.” Yeah, but you did it to a high quality. At a high level.
You need to take that example and that experience, and you need to really put it out there because applying for jobs in freelancing is not like sending your resume out. Where Employers are often really picking holes in your resume, I find freelance clients just want you to be good.
They're really positive, and they're looking for, to some extent, the diamond in the rough. They're looking for really great freelancers amongst people who aren't quite so great. And if you're one of them, then you need to really push yourself forward. So my advice is always to not be too worried if you haven't done something for 10 years consistently. If you're good at something and you've done it once or twice for pay, you're in. That's it. You do it. That's in your portfolio. And you say, “Yes sir, I can do that again.” That's what I would recommend.
Also, keep changing your portfolio and your profile. Write it and write it again. Seek advice. Go on to YouTube. There are some great channels. Yours is one, Chad. There are some great bloggers out there. I take heart by reading success stories. For example, Fiverr has got some really great bloggers. Mostly female bloggers that have done amazingly well and you read their stories and you think, yeah, they're really good. So watch their channels as well. And just absorb that kind of professional advice from other freelancers. It's the best source of education.
Chad:
Thank you for that. That was a lot of really great advice about getting started with where to find clients. And I love how you talked about the portfolio. That is a problem when we’re getting started. We tend to undermine our previous experience.
Thank you for mentioning the importance of taking even just the smallest thing that you've done, even if you barely got paid, or even if you didn't get paid, and putting it in your portfolio.
The difference between a freelancer portfolio and a resume is that in a resume you do get really hung up on the amount of time that you spend practicing a skill.
It's more of a work history journal than it is a list of proof of your accomplishments attached to a specific service. I think that's where a lot of beginner freelancers get stuck. They think they don't have a portfolio.
Especially the ones that I talk to who have been in the workforce for a few years and they've done some things. They really do undermine the experience they have and the ability to convert their experience into a portfolio.
Jason:
I'll add one more thing. You're talking about newcomers and people who have a little more experience with having jobs. One of the things that I would recommend to my younger self, and also to anyone who's entering the workforce, is to start collecting evidence about what you're doing in your job now. Not when you're looking to leave the job.
Because you will build up a portfolio of the stuff you're doing that would blow your mind as to what you are doing in any kind of regular job that requires a certain amount of responsibility. You'll do a lot. And when you are looking to leave, you'll forget half of it and you won't promote yourself about it.
Start building up a folder that has everything you did and wrote. For marketing, it's like, “I created this in Canva,” or “I did this in Photoshop,” “I wrote this,” or “I contacted this person,” or “I created this strategic partnership,” or whatever.
And you just collect together a portfolio. And when it comes to you leaving and writing your resume for the next job, you have everything you did written down from day one. And you might be thinking that sounds like you’re planning on leaving the job straight away. Well, you're not planning on being there forever, so at some point, you're leaving. So start collecting together this evidence. Because without other experience, you do need to rely heavily on what you've actually done. If you’re on Upwork and you've earned $10,000 in total, you're still up against someone earning a hundred thousand. Yeah. You've still gotta go in. You've still gotta go for these jobs.
And that's okay. You just be who you are. One of the advantages of freelancing is that I can be who I am and I don't have to pretend to be someone else to fit into a job spec. You can just say, this is who I am, this is how I write, this is my opinion about websites. This is my opinion about PR, this is what I would suggest. These are my marketing plans and that's it. If you don't like those, you're perfectly entitled not to like them. If you like them, then that's great, but I don't have to change them.
That's one of the real strengths of freelancing is that you can be who you want to be. You know, if you have really strong opinions about how to do things, freelancing is a place to do it.
You can express those opinions, and that's kind of refreshing in a work environment. In a work environment within a team, you have to really hone down what you think to fit into the expectations of your boss or your manager, or your teammates.
When you're freelancing, you can kind of stretch your legs a bit and be a little bit more opinionated because that is one of the ways you'll stand out as well. Have an opinion. If you look and sound like every other freelancer, you're not gonna get chosen.
Chad:
Yeah, having those opinions helps you appear much more like an expert in your field. That's why companies hire freelancers. They wanna hire people that have those opinions about how to do this certain thing. You have the freedom to do that.
I wanted to shift gears a little bit in the last part of our conversation here and talk about the transition to freelancing. You've shared some great advice so far about that. For the employee that wants to become a freelancer, this is where you start: go to the platforms that are already set up to connect clients with freelancers.
You don't have to go door to door or to your local business. I also tried that route. I was going to networking events locally. I was trying to talk to local businesses, but it was trying to find a needle and a haystack. Even though it was people that were local, the chances of them wanting my services were much lower than just going to this worldwide workplace where I can apply to a job at a company that's already looking for my services.
I wanted to talk about how to balance freelancing and family. It's a big theme on this show especially when you're homeschooling. And I wanted you to talk about that element because that's a different dynamic as well. It's different when you're freelancing at home as a parent, but your children are gone from the house several hours a day.
It's a different thing when your kids are home all day, along with your wife. When I am working, I usually work four days a week and try to take three-day weekends. I have a fairly consistent schedule for the most part.
But what are some things that you've learned so far about how to balance family life and work life? How do you get enough separation so that you're productive, but at the same time you're still involved at home? Let's talk a little bit about that.
Jason:
I think having a schedule is going to be a big part of that. Knowing when to quit for the day. Also, not worrying too much about missed opportunities. Obviously, if you're away from the screen, or away from the phone, a client could call, or somebody could email. This is true. But you do need to separate yourself out. I'm early on in the process, so I'm finding it hard to balance. But I also know that I'm finding it hard to balance and I know that that has to be corrected. So I work a lot.
But I understand it’s not sustainable because working all the time is not one of the reasons that I've stayed at home. It is to be part of the homeschooling experience. Now. We know that in a lot of cases, a lot of homeschooling is driven by the mom staying at home and working within the home and being a really primary sort of source of education for our children.
Meanwhile, the husband is making the income, or it could be the other way around if just one person's making income. But I think that to have balance you have to understand that your workspace is not just your workspace anymore. It's not an office. I'm down here on the ground floor, overlooking the garden, and I'm next to the kitchen. These are prime areas of the house for homeschooling.
You can't separate yourself from the fact that there are children in the house. They're doing their thing and they're going to be children. And there's a give and take on that one. You can't keep shushing them all the time because they're not really built to do that all the time. They’re young and they want to run around and be too loud. And that's great. I like it.
We talk about jobs and freelancing, but my favorite job, the best job I've ever had is being a dad. That's it. That's all I can say about that one. So that takes priority and, therefore I'm happy to be that and to have that role. And freelancing is great. But I will look forward to dialing it down like you have by working four days a week. That will be great.
What I would aim to do is probably take a day out of the week rather than say quitting early on, you know, on a weekday. So we shall see. But you certainly have the flexibility. It's one of the other reasons. Online clients are quite good because if they're in different time zones, you can break up your day a bit. That's what I found anyway.
Chad:
Yeah. And they don't have that expectation of you know, they're not paying you to be an employee that's available between these hours every day. It's very different in that way. And I completely agree with you that you have to allow space and you can't try to work like you would in an office while at home.
It's still a process for us. My wife and I have been doing this for six years now, and we're still figuring out how to do this better and better. At this point, we're working on me having an hour and a half every day where it's uninterrupted focused work time. And by uninterrupted, that doesn't mean that everyone else is being quiet or whatever. It just means that she's able to take care of the kids and there just isn't the interruption in and out of my office so that I can focus on certain things or I schedule calls during that time.
But for the most part, I expect there to be interruptions. I've had to kind of redefine it as, okay, it's not an interruption. It's just the background of the environment I'm working in. I used to see it as an interruption when my kids would come in and out or ask me questions.
When I used to try to keep them out of my workspace and I'd have the door shut when I was working, my oldest would knock on the door and he would make a bunch of noise. But then when I allowed him to be in my workspace, I was actually interrupted a lot less. So I realized that needed to be part of it.
If you can see behind me, there's a whole table in the back of my office where my oldest son has all of his Legos. And now I have another little table over here for my three-year-old, so they can both be in here and have their little things they do and work on. I think they like to be in dad's space. It's amazing how when I let them in, they let me do my thing for the most part.
They're still kids and sometimes they're like, “Oh, I have a question I need to ask Dad right now.” But if I'm in the middle of working on something, I can't take a break, then I have to let them know. I’m still figuring out how to set those boundaries and be like, “Okay, I'll be able to do this thing with you or play with you in about 30 minutes. I have to finish this thing.” But I'm still trying to figure out how to communicate that in the right way.
I've noticed that when I schedule it and I tell them, “Hey, I will get to you in this amount of time”, even though they don't fully understand time yet, they tend to allow me to do my thing and finish what I'm working on.
I can't just constantly keep breaking from what I'm doing every two minutes because then I’m not productive enough.
I was talking to my wife the other day about how I’ve had moments where I felt like I needed to be in an office or somewhere else where I could focus. I’ve had to work through my ability to block out the noise, and at the same time, be okay with that environment.
But then I realized it would actually be really weird to go back to an office. I don't think I could just focus for eight hours straight on a job. I'd almost be looking for some level of interruption. It's like my brain has figured out how to work differently. It’s almost like having my family here resets my attention in a way that I need. But yeah, it's an ever-evolving thing, figuring out how to balance this.
I enjoy being a part of my kids' homeschooling life as well. We're just starting to kind of ramp up as my oldest son is six and my second is three. So we're just starting to really get into it more and have more deliberate lessons on things. Glad to see that another dad is really doing the same. Knowing what your priorities are and what's most important. Your kids are going to be adults before you can blink, and you want to be there for those moments. Do you have anything else you want to share about that?
Jason:
I have a load. I don't wanna keep you too long here, Chad, but I have a lot of opinions about it. You have to be opinionated to take this road. It's too hard not to be super opinionated about it. Do you have a sign on the door when you can't be disturbed? Do you ever have a “Do Not Disturb” sign?
Chad:
Yeah, I made a sign that has red on one side and green on the other. I actually haven't used it in a bit. But yeah, I made a sign that lets them know I’m in a meeting or something. Or I’m in something more important where I can't be interrupted. And then I also had some signals like if my door is closed, I'm in a focused meeting type of thing. If my door is open then you can come in. I'm still working, but I'm here. So yeah, trying to figure out some different ways of communicating that.
Jason:
Yeah. I also found a decent pair of headphones really helps. I put those on and I put on some background noise you know, like white noise or cafe sounds or something like that just to slightly take out the peaks of the screams.
Somewhere in the house, there's a scream, there's a shout. If I just take that peak out, then I can just concentrate a little bit more, certainly when I’m writing. Or thinking about concepts and that sort of thing. So yeah, I think you do end up learning to concentrate. I don't think offices are these havens of quiet and concentration that they make them out to be.
I've worked in offices for 20 years and I got interruptions all the time. All the time. Even by myself. Because you might start chatting with a colleague across the way or something like that. You just do. So this idea that there's some sort of a place where you get amazing amounts of creativity and productivity, I don't believe it.
Another thing I should say as well about having your children come in, I wonder how many children truly know what their parents do for a living. And truly understand what it is their parents are doing and what they give up in order to bring money into the house. I think when you work freelance, they can see what you're doing and they can ask questions. And it can be a very, very transparent kind of process where I might say that I may or may not want my children to do a similar kind of a job, but at least we have that conversation.
They can see what's required and what it's like to sit down in front of a computer. Do they want to do that kind of thing? Maybe they want to do something else a bit more creative or a bit more hands-on or something. And I think that’s kind of nice. So yeah, my children also come into the workspace, but then we don't have a huge house.
So this workspace is also the school room. We have all of our homeschooling courses, books, and library books everywhere. We have a great long shelving unit with a laminator, artwork, poster paints, and all kinds of things. And then we've got our shoes and our boots hanging up behind me.
So there's a little bit of a mix-and-match in the environment. I did have my own office upstairs, but I felt I was detached from what was going on. I thought, “What am I up here in this tiny box room doing on my own with just a computer when it's all going on downstairs and it's all there?” So I took the route of coming downstairs amongst the busyness and then forming a corner that's mine.
And sometimes I will block it off. I have two doors here, so sometimes I block it off and say, “No, I've got a phone conversation,” or “I've got a meeting,” or “I've got a pitch or a proposal,” or “I've got to think” or “I have a deadline.” Well, that's fine, Okay. They can enjoy themselves elsewhere, but otherwise, there's a little bit of back and forth.
And that can be hard. Once in a while, they come in too much. And then you just sort of have to sort of say, "That's too much. Can we just back off for a bit?" But it's kind of nice and if you're gonna get interrupted at work, you might as well get interrupted by your kids, to be honest. Rather than a colleague asking if you want a coffee.
Chad:
Yeah, that's exactly what my wife just told me the other day. She's like, “Wouldn't you rather be interrupted by your kids than a bunch of colleagues talking about their life drama or whatever else they want to talk about?”
Jason:
Oh, yeah. Talking about their weekend and all that. I like people, I really do, and I like talking nonsense, but I don't need it all the time. I'd rather my kids would tell me that they found something in the garden. That's more interesting.
Chad:
Yeah, exactly. Thanks for sharing all your insights on that. And yeah, it's an ever-evolving thing. It's really exciting speaking to another dad who's doing the same thing, has the same priorities, and is committed to making this work.
It is absolutely possible, and more and more people will awaken to realize that this is a legitimate career path where you can support your family substantially doing this. I'm thankful for all the advice that you shared with us today and for helping to give other parents hope that this is a very viable way to support a family, and it's worth it. So I wanted to thank you for everything that you've shared with us today, and I'm sure we'll have to have a future conversation as well. I'm glad that we were able to connect and have this conversation so that other dads can start to explore this as a possible path.
Jason:
Yeah. It's my pleasure. I think that one of the advantages of your channel is that it's very focused on a particular set of circumstances that don't occur all the time. You have to make them happen. And it takes a lot of commitment. And when you’re starting, you kind of need case studies and examples of people who are doing what you want to do.
I think that conversations like this will show that it is a reality. It's not all amazing, but it is very doable. It just takes quite a lot of hard work. It's not easy freelancing at home and homeschooling at the same time. It's really a lot of challenges. But the rewards are huge. When you are asked about it all the time, there's not much you can say to them. You just have to sort of point out that it's very rewarding. And it is a great challenge.
You're going to be challenged anyway in life. So let's just be challenged about something really important, which is obviously your children. Once you've had children, you look at them and you think, “Wow, what am I going to do with these?” That’s something that we decided on a long time ago. We really, really wanted to do something with them, with them, and them with us. And that’s extremely rewarding.
Chad:
Yeah. And it will absolutely pay off.
Jason:
It's huge. It's a huge path, isn't it?
Chad:
Yeah. It's rewarding now, and the rewards will even show up later. Like you mentioned earlier, my kids can see more hands-on how I'm earning money for the household. It's not this distant thing, and they're able to have this understanding of it. I've even had conversations with my son about the economics of it and how as I'm doing this work on this computer, somebody else is paying me money in exchange for it. And that's how we're able to purchase the things we need.
My oldest son already has an entrepreneurial type of spirit about him. Over the summer, he invented Spider-Man web shooters and was selling them at a local market. He's always talking about the things that he can create when he grows up, not just the job he can get. And that’s important.
I think it's just important to understand that this is actually a more secure source of income when you really get it going, than an employee job. Because now, with freelancing, you have diversification and different clients that are paying you money. If one client drops out, you don't lose all your income and you can recover. So it's worth it.
Jason:
Yeah. We should definitely talk more about the technical side of successful freelancing because it's a real art and craft. It's also quite an emotional roller coaster ride that you need to take a big view on and not get dejected if you lose a client or you don't win a proposal. Especially if it’s a job that was perfect for you and you don't get it. You've got to ride these out. It's a long game and people don't like selling themselves, that's for sure. But it's not as difficult as they think. It really isn't. Once you get them comfortable and talking about things they really want to talk about, they're great at selling themselves.
And that's what I find when I talk to nervous freelancers or people who don't think that they can do it. I tend to have to get them to talk about what they're good at, and then they start easily talking about themselves and they're really promoting themselves. Now I’m getting off-topic there, but we should definitely talk more about the technical side of freelancing another time. There are so many tips and things to learn. It was, it was great talking to you, Chad.
Chad:
Yeah, you too. And I'll be sure to have you back again. Thanks for your conversation today, we'll see you later!
Jason’s Website: www.jasondoggett.com
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